Andrew Chen

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The question that got me to leave Seattle for greener startup pastures

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Seattle is a great tech city
Since I was 5 years old until 4 years after college, I called Seattle my home, and technology was intertwined with my childhood. As a kid, I found lots of avenues to my formative years in computing, including access to gopher and telnet via Seattle Community Network, the pre-web BBS scene, and a 5th grade classroom filled with Macs. As a college student, I got to work at various tech startups and ended up at a VC firm after I graduated. There’s not a lot of cities that have the ecosystem to have given me opportunities like that – maybe half a dozen at the most, and Seattle is certainly high up on the list.

Ultimately though, I left after 2006 – it took a lot of soul searching but ultimately one question got me over the edge. Let me explain what that was.

The question that got me to leave Seattle
As I pondered staying or leaving Seattle, I did a lot of thinking about the city from a startup context and what was working and not. Obviously it’s great to have companies like Microsoft, Amazon, Real, and others there – it produced a wonderful tech ecosystem that is thriving and growing every day.

But in late-2006, the social networking world had caught fire, and I wondered:

Post-bubble, when was the last time Seattle produced a world-changing consumer internet company?

And try as I might, I couldn’t shake the idea that while the rest of the tech world in California was producing YouTube, MySpace, Facebook, Google, and others, Seattle had Amazon and sort of stopped.

I wasn’t sure that I would be able to answer WHY, but I packed my bags and figured I’d figure out a theory at some point. A few years later, thinking about the question now, I think it has a lot to do with the kinds of companies being built in Seattle.

Different kinds of companies – Commerce versus Community
My current hypothesis is that Seattle has a strong history in retail and commerce, which has influenced the kinds of companies that are started there. Obviously you have Amazon, but you also have Eddie Bauer, Blue Nile, Nordstrom, Costco, Starbucks, and numerous other online/offline retail businesses there. There are also lots of transaction-focused startups based in real estate (like Redfin) or travel (Expedia).

These retail and transactionally-focused businesses are great money-makers, but because they target in-market buyers for a particular good or service, it means that you’re not really building a huge audience. You end up with the <10% of the general population that is in-market for buying a diamond or plane tickets or a house, not a viral and sticky UGC site you visit every day.

The classic way to build a huge audience is to focus on ad-driven businesses in the world of communication or content publishing, and there just aren’t that many of them in Seattle. (Though congrats to the Ben Huh for marching his horde of cats in this direction – the Cheezburger sites have the #1 traffic slot in Seattle right now) If you look at categories like social networking or YouTube or Twitter, these are more like everyday tools that hundreds of millions of people might use every day to communicate or find the content they want. Those are mass audience driven businesses and end up being high-variance outcomes – you end up with huge hits and also big failures because you need more money-losing years to build up the audience necessary to monetize at the rates you want. (just look at Imeem’s recent firesale even as they had amassed tens of millions of active users)

Different types of expertise – SEO versus viral/social
Similarly, the above influence also drives the skillset involved for one of the key startup goals: Driving traffic. My working hypothesis for Seattle is that it’s a very strong SEO-oriented community, and you have many of the top experts living and working there. The reason, of course, is that retail and transactional sites are mostly found via Google, and it makes sense to develop a skillset around getting that traffic for free rather than paying the search engine for it.

That’s great, but that also closes the door for the all-important knowledge of the viral loop that companies in social gaming are learning now, and what social networks companies learned before them.

For that reason, much of the social gaming and social network action happens down in the Bay Area.

Comments?
In short, years later I think I’ve mostly answered my own question – my hypothesis is that Seattle hasn’t produced mass audience consumer products mainly because it’s focused on down-to-earth charge-users-for-a-product types of businesses that are more transactional than community. I don’t think that’s a good or bad thing – just as you’ll get more biotech in Boston, there’s a specialization in Seattle around commerce/retail. But if you’re doing a social UGC thing, the Bay area is the best place to be.

Seattle folks (or otherwise): Do you agree or disagree with the above? Let me know in the comments – would enjoy hearing your thoughts.

UPDATE: For all the people who think I’m being a Seattle-hater, here’s a similar analysis for the Bay Area: Does Silicon Valley noise detract from long term value creation? It’s a related piece and discusses some of what I’ve noted since being down in SF.

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Written by Andrew Chen

November 23rd, 2009 at 7:45 am

Posted in Uncategorized

  • Of course the Bay understands viral/social marketing. That's why the money is there, and that's why they're willing (and able) to invest big in long term go for broke schemes. Because it's not only the viral-loop of customer growth they're counting on, it's the same hype mentality VCs use that fuels huge capitalizations for IPOs and acquisitions.

    Even Google hasn't really capitalized yet. They have the market share, which gave them the investment dollars to buy doubleclick, which is their primary revenue generator. Investment pours into Google not so much because people think they will someday learn how to make money, but because they think the investment momentum will mean that when a big winner is found, Google will be there to buy it.

    It was the same mentality people thought about Microsoft. Bet on the big wallet. Most of their war chest didn't come from sales of Windows and Office (though it helps to have a real cash flow), it came from investors betting that Microsoft would acquire, assimilate, or or neutralize the next big thing. It worked with Netscape (another virally successful, but profitability failed company.)

    Now I'm not saying that creating something wildly successful that can't monetize isn't a bad thing. The truth is that it's the investment that makes most of these businesses unprofitable. Facebook could be profitable, and profitably maintained with less than 1/100th the current investment. Development isn't that expensive, even if you take 100 top developers, pay them $100K each, and spend an equal amount housing and equipping them.

    That's only $20 million.
  • partywedo
    Andrew,
    Does that mean that companies who are straddling the eCommerce/social media ecosystems should start up in Portland, Oregon?
  • This is a great question Andrew, but I think your hypothesis is way out of left field. Not only are these dichomoties invalid distinctions between Seattle and the Bay Area, I'm really not sure that they matter. Your focus is far too recent and skillset-specific - these things are not what make one region more innovative than another.

    I really diagree about the "transactional" focus you mention. Certainly there are some companies that you can pick out, but aside from Amazon, I don't think any of these can be considered a big tech success story. I don't know anyone in Seattle who's focused on building a commerce-based business. Seattle is every bit as focused on following the next big trend and right now that appears to be viral/social/web applications.

    I think this is actually one of Seattle's big flaws. The tech community here seems to be fast-followers of the latest hype cycle, but it's very much about following. There's a lot of this in the Bay Area too, but the intitators (leaders) of these trends seem to be there as well.

    The viral/social vs. SEO topic is just wildly unfounded. These are 2 skillsets that I'm sure EVERYONE building a web startup today is aware of and very focused on, regardless of geography.

    I have frequently asked myself this same question, but I'm not sure I have a better answer. The big players in Seattle seem to be fading, Amazon being the big exception (Real is nearly dead, Microsoft seems way behind the times, etc.). I think there are a lot of things that make a region innovative, and it all comes down to the culture.

    Culture is really hard to define, and even harder to create, whether in a startup or in a region. The Bay Area has great universities, more people, more companies. It has a deep history of technology startups and innovation that can never be erased. As a result of this there are many entrepreneurs that are now investors and have a very different focus from those who are former consultants or investment bankers. These investors fund ideas that balance-sheet focused investors can't even understand. Taking chances is the only way to create something new.

    The diversity of technologies in the Bay Area is much greater than Seattle and includes much more hard technology (e.g. semiconductors, networking, hardware OEMs), which I think is essential for new waves of innovation. I find it interesting that there are very few mid-sized companies in Seattle. We have big and small (startups), but there are very few in the 500-2000 person range (my definition is a little different than the government's). I think this may just be a result of more diversity.

    All of these things (re)combine to make the Bay Area a fertile ground for innovation.
  • Adam, good to hear from you. Well reasoned post.

    The reason why I headed straight for the community vs commerce distinction is because that is hands down the biggest difference in thinking I've observed while down here. As I mentioned in another comment, this is 100% anecdotal and unscientific.

    At the same time though, I know (and have named in previous blog posts) at least a dozen teams, and by extension, 100s of employees who really know their community and viral methods cold. I can't say that I really have met anyone from Seattle who really gets this particular niche skillset, which I think is responsible for a lot of the PayPal alumni's success, Facebook's success, etc.

    Maybe I am missing some teams in Seattle that really get it but I'm just unaware? It's possible (and maybe very likely) that I've just lost touch with the people doing interesting work in this area since I've been out of the region...
  • I think you're probably right that the Bay Area has more social/viral expertise, but I see this as more an outcome than a cause of success. Innovation has much deeper roots and the next wave will generate an entirely new skillset.
  • Now that I totally agree with - if you take my critique as centering around geographic specialization, I think it's key for Seattle to develop a unique community around a high-opportunity industry. The current generation of internet is all about community, UGC, social, and viral, but you're right that Seattle entrepreneurs might take the lead in the next generation - wonder what that might be?
  • Interesting, Andrew. As you know I recently left Seattle for SF; I posted my own thoughts on the transition here: http://jasoncrawford.org/2009/10/sucked-into-th...

    Is it really that the social/viral wave is stronger in SF than Seattle? Or is it just that Seattle only produces a huge winner once every 10-20 years?

    Anyway, I sympathize, so I won't call you a Seattle-hater (but watch out or Fred Wilson might call you a Silicon Valley bigot).
  • I think the social/viral wave really strong down here in the bay area, and has only gotten stronger in the last two years due to social gaming and facebook apps. I think you now have an entire generation of entrepreneurs trained on metrics-driven virality coupled with freemium models, and while a large % of them will just be trying to build the latest farm game, I think you'll start to see dividends over the next cycle... that's just my theory :-)
  • I think you're largely right, Andrew... Though I wonder if there is data to back up the Valley advantage? Are you really hunting for "world-changing" or are you really talking about big/successful/exit-worthy? I don't know what you're working on, but I imagine you're (like most people who create a world-changing startup!) are aiming for the latter.

    I'd love to see someone take all of the CrunchBase data (or any other data set), segment it by audience (consumer, B2B, etc) and measure the success rate by where the company is located. Bonus points if you also measure by where the company was founded (Facebook, StumbleUpon, WordPress, etc., were all founded outside of the Valley).

    I paid a few virtual assistants to get the hometown of all companies on a big list of exits over 3 years if you feel like playing with the data:

    http://www.tonywright.com/2009/just-how-importa...

    Same data crunched a different way:

    http://www.tonywright.com/2009/should-you-move-...
  • Thanks for sharing that blog post. I remember seeing it but it was worth reading again.

    After thinking much more about my points, I think I am mostly pointing out that there is a geographic specialization for Seattle to go for transactional/revenue-centric business models versus the Bay Area being more comfortable going for "audience" businesses.

    Inherent in my "world changing" label is the idea that to change the world, you have to impact 10s or 100s of millions of consumers. Maybe that is not true? But that is really my naive definition.

    Anyway, this just nets out to some points around skillsets oriented around different geographies, that's all.
  • I think that's a fair definition (or at least a good arbitrary one!).

    But what does a specialized region get you? Lots of peers to talk with,
    surely... But how many do you need? And how much time should you really
    invest in talking to peers? Investors who are comfortable with the space
    (but with early traction, I think most would invest out of the Valley).
    Conferences? Generally it's all online a few days later. Was Zuckerberg an
    avid networker / startup event go-er? Brin and Page?

    Is the net-effect a meaningfully positive one? Clearly our 3 or 4 MOST
    world-changing consumer stars either started in the Valley or eventually
    moved there. IMO, the bigger question is rate and (to a less extent)
    magnitude. i.e. For every 100 social startups in the Valley, how many
    exit? Is that different than Seattle? (note: according to Crunchbase,
    that's NOT the case for startups in general, though it might be different
    for consumer/social startups). For those same 200 startups, what was the
    average exit value?

    This is all hard data to get at... But given the number of world-changers
    that at least started outside of the valley, I think it's probably okay to
    spend your formative months elsewhere and head south if the situation
    warrants it.
  • I'm sure this conversation is rehashed over and over again in other industries - LA for showbiz, NYC for finance, DC for politics, Silicon valley for startups, and Japan for cute robots.

    The advantage I'm arguing for in my post is mostly around the idea that there's specialized knowledge that you gain in a community that really focuses on it. That's not to say that you can't start in Taiwan and eventually make it into big screen blockbuster movies, but there may be more uphill battles than being immersed in it. I know certainly that in my time in the Bay Area I've learned lots of DIFFERENT stuff than I was learning in Seattle, some of it helpful and completely unhelpful :-)
  • not sure it's as simple as just "Seattle = SEO, Bay Area = social/viral" but i do tend to agree with the basic analysis you lay out.

    on the other hand, i actually like the focus on transactional / retail business (aka "companies that make money"), and thing that's a good thing.

    while i spend most of my time in the SF bay area, i've been fortunate to invest/advise in several companies that have Seattle roots (TeachStreet, Twilio, 1000 Markets, Jambool). i'd also observe that many of those folks have foundations that came out of Amazon, and that's been a tremendous place to develop talent, perhaps 2nd only to my own alma mater PayPal in terms of # of impressive entrepreneurs who claim those roots.

    maybe it's helpful to look at where startups come *FROM* over where they end up... my .02.
  • actually, i think both *FROM* (Facebook in Boston) and *WHERE* (Bay Area) are important -- I'm not disputing the Bay Area as a utopia of startup enablement -- i don't think anyone really is. the frustration is just over the pedantic discussion that it's the ONLY place where large-impact startups can be enabled. phlbbt. i'm headed back to google analytics, where i can ponder my own startup's issues in private :-)
  • Andrew -- when are you actually going to ship your startup that you've been working on for going on 4 years now? Stop pontificating and ship something -- don't they teach you that down in the Bay Area? Don't you discuss that via blogs, twitter, facebook, and vark 400 times a day?

    Yes, I know that this is another seemingly unprovoked attack, and that I could have e-mailed you directly, but really, these types of geographic-comparison posts are honestly, boring. And ridiculous. Like I said on my earlier tweet, until you've actually delivered on your own successful startup, please hold off on opining on the capabilities of your peers on a geographic scale. Next you'll be telling us to ship early and ship often. And to measure twice, cut once.

    I've got one for you -- ship it or shut it.
  • It took me a little while to find it, but here was the other thing you sent me on Twitter a while back:

    "@andrew_chen - screw u & ur Bay Area pontifications - when u've had ur own successful exit, talk - til then, u're a big company hack & vc"

    First off, have we met each other? I know we know a few folks in common, and they say nice enough things about you, but the only interactions I've had with you have been hostile - and I really don't know why.

    I'm just blogging, and reflecting. You don't have to read my shit if you don't want to, especially if it makes you so angry.

    Why are you so angry about what I write?
  • hawks5999
    As far as not having to read your blog - I know I'm one of over 900 people who just got it emailed to them as part of the Seattle Tech Startups mailing list. People subscribed to that list might actually react a little more negatively to your assertion that Seattle hasn't really produced any game changing business. Just FYI.

    One point of analysis that I'd make about your post is the following: It sounds like you are saying that Seattle produces companies that make products and services that make money and the Bay Area produces companies that make community and hope to make money from advertising at some point. An easier analysis would be to say that Seattle is home to Microsoft and the Bay Area is home to Google. The ecosystem around Microsoft believes you make products and charge people for them. The ecosystem around Google is you sell advertising on top of your service to make money. Between the two: the Microsoft/Seattle form of business has been around and proven for some 6,000+ years of human history. The Google/Bay Area form of business has been around for under 100 years. My personal belief is that the Seattle method will outlive the Bay Area method and, with the exception of bubble periods, will outperform.
    Now, if the Bay Area would emulate Apple and not Google, the two cities would be nearly identical. The Bay Area would just look more like Justin Long
  • Seattle obviously obviously is home to many world-changing companies, that is absolutely not what I'm contesting.

    I'm just making the observation that in the last 10 years, there hasn't been much to come out of consumer internet from Seattle, and I give some speculation for why that might be. Note that Google, YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, Linkedin are all NEW consumer internet companies - I would love to see the same pipeline of action coming from Seattle, and I think that a big reason has to do with the transactional vs audience-building mix.

    Thoughts?
  • hawks5999
    Sorry, should have added a "lately" to the line about game changing business. No one would argue about Seattle having game changers.
    I don't disagree with your points differentiating Puget Sound from Bay Area. But I think your question is more of a reason to stay in Seattle than to go to Bay Area from an investment perspective. I can't cite a study but I think that a product or service based company that charges for its product has a better chance of making money than an ad-based UGC or community company. I could be wrong and am open to statistical data that refutes me. That's not a challenge, just saying I'm open to having my assumptions proved wrong.
  • My observations are 100% non-statistical. All anecdotes ;-)

    I think logically, maybe the reason why there are more UGC-oriented social sites in the Bay Area is that there's just more startups. So it's just a kind of observation bias.

    I'm just saying that from my personal observation, I'm leaning towards a cultural difference in the kind of regional specializations. Whether that's accurate or not, who knows, but I think it's a point worth considering (and investigating further) for those who care.
  • tweets only allow me 140 characters, and at that point, i was passionate about something and overdid it. but it's passion, not anger. or, more frustration over these types of broad generalizations from people, especially when the same people are often not out there actually delivering on the things they're pontificating on (example: eric ries telling everyone to run a lean startup when he's officing at kleiner perkins and not investing his own money -- and, not sure what his real impact/ownership was at his previous startups... you, i think having worked in contributor roles at several larger tech companies and then telling people about geographic capabilities... by the way, are you lumping all of california together now? los angeles (myspace) and san fran are a little separate, no?)

    and, it doesn't matter if we've physically met one another -- my response is not anonymous, and your opinions are posted publicly. i'm just trying to voice a response so that others who read your opinions consider their source. and maybe plant the idea for you that you should spend more time actually shipping your idea according to your theories, than sharing yet more theories with everyone

    then your opinions will be more informed by actual experience

    and, i know i don't have to 'read your shit' -- actually, i read it because Bill Bryant posted it on the Seattle Tech Startups list... and I thought to myself "what a load of shit, who wrote this?" and then clicked thru... voila...
  • Maybe one day we can grab coffee and I can tell you more about what I'm working on. I'm definitely following what I believe, including being stealth, so you may not be familiar with the specifics.

    Honestly though, if you disagree with what I'm saying about Seattle's regional focus being on transactional businesses, it'd a lot more helpful to hear about why you disagree rather than slamming me for supposedly not practicing what I preach.

    Anyway, I appreciate your passion and the time you spent reading my rambling blog post.
  • Seattle also has a rich history in Wireless. The birth place of course was McCaw Cellular which was located on Carillon Point in Seattle's eastside. Seattle is unique in that it has been and still is home to several wireless carriers. Seattle gave me the opportunity to work with several wireless start-ups before we worked together at Revenue Science.

    What a great opportunity you have had to learn about UGC and viral mechanisms in the bay area. I still recall our meeting at the mall the week before you left for San Fran and your enthusiasm for the opportunities that were ahead.

    Seattle knows mobile very well. It is interesting that Seattle has not been able to capitalize more on the social gaming and social network action particularly within the mobile space.

    Thank you for sharing your observations.
  • Yes, wireless, commerce, casual games (bigfish+popcap+others), core games (nintendo+xbox+valve+others), and many more categories. That's definitely Seattle's specialization the same way that advertising is a NY focus and a lot of biotech happens in Boston.
  • Great post, Andrew - broadening the base of innovation up here is something we've been thinking about a great deal lately. Here's my post in response - building on your idea but taking it in a slightly different direction: http://crashdev.blogspot.com/2009/11/interestin...
  • Good blog post. I agree and view what you're saying sort of as addressing the supply and demand problem for deals in that kind of space. You won't get crazy shoot-the-moon consumer internet deals if VCs don't want to fund them.
  • zipflash
    In one sense, Seattle is the norm. Charging for a product, and/or going cash-positive as early as possible, is the norm for startups. The Bay Area is the anomaly, fueled by unusually plentiful capital.

    Historically, startups either go cash-positive in the first couple of years, or never. There are good counterexamples (FedEx), but they are rare.

    The post-1996 VC model -- invest for years, and exit before breakeven -- is anomalous, both historically and geographically. Anomalous and, perhaps, ephemeral.

    But the point about viral loop expertise is dead on.
  • I think the companies who *think* they have network effects - FedEx is one example, but TCI/Comcast are others - are much more willing to go unprofitable for years upfront. Perhaps more startups in the Bay Area aspire to this outcome, even if only a few companies get there :-) And yes, I'm sure the supply of VC helps a lot as well.
  • zipflash
    Yes, network effect drives the investment. This recalls a network-investing thought experiment I've wondered about for years:

    http://nostradoofus.com/2009/11/23/network-inve...
  • Great blog post! Please introduce yourself - would enjoy trading a couple more emails on this topic. My address is voodoo at gmail.
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