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	<title>Comments on: User retention: Why depending on notification-driven retention sucks</title>
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	<link>http://andrewchenblog.com/2008/05/29/user-retention-why-depending-on-notification-driven-retention-sucks/</link>
	<description>Essays on viral marketing, freemium, and social gaming</description>
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		<title>By: dave mcclure</title>
		<link>http://andrewchenblog.com/2008/05/29/user-retention-why-depending-on-notification-driven-retention-sucks/comment-page-1/#comment-137</link>
		<dc:creator>dave mcclure</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jun 2008 16:29:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewchenblog.com/2008/05/29/user-retention-why-depending-on-notification-driven-retention-sucks/#comment-137</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;missed this first time around, but it&#039;s excellent summary.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;that said, i don&#039;t think you should be TOO hard on email-driven notification / retention -- i agree that organic retention is much more desirable, but achieving that via great user experience is probably orthogonal (or at least not mutually exclusive) wrt email retention.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;otoh, i think you&#039;re spot on to spend a lot of time thinking about how to engage high-value active users, whether via emotional or economic rewards.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;one additional thought: many times people tend to split the audience into only 2 groups: readers &amp; content-creators.  actually, i think it&#039;s useful to consider splitting them into 3 groups: &lt;br /&gt;
* readers = visit your site &amp; read stuff&lt;br /&gt;
* creators = visit your site &amp; create stuff &lt;br /&gt;
* pimps = visit your site &amp; &quot;pimp&quot; stuff out&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;what i think many people miss is that often the pimps are higher value than the creators, and that your incentive structures should actually emphasize the &quot;pimps&quot; over the &quot;creators&quot; (note: this may also assume you have already incentivized creators to get to minimum critical mass of content).  &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;anyway, just a thought.&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>missed this first time around, but it&#8217;s excellent summary.</p>
<p>that said, i don&#8217;t think you should be TOO hard on email-driven notification / retention &#8212; i agree that organic retention is much more desirable, but achieving that via great user experience is probably orthogonal (or at least not mutually exclusive) wrt email retention.</p>
<p>otoh, i think you&#8217;re spot on to spend a lot of time thinking about how to engage high-value active users, whether via emotional or economic rewards.</p>
<p>one additional thought: many times people tend to split the audience into only 2 groups: readers &#038; content-creators.  actually, i think it&#8217;s useful to consider splitting them into 3 groups: <br />
* readers = visit your site &#038; read stuff<br />
* creators = visit your site &#038; create stuff <br />
* pimps = visit your site &#038; &#8220;pimp&#8221; stuff out</p>
<p>what i think many people miss is that often the pimps are higher value than the creators, and that your incentive structures should actually emphasize the &#8220;pimps&#8221; over the &#8220;creators&#8221; (note: this may also assume you have already incentivized creators to get to minimum critical mass of content).  </p>
<p>anyway, just a thought.</p>
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		<title>By: Adam</title>
		<link>http://andrewchenblog.com/2008/05/29/user-retention-why-depending-on-notification-driven-retention-sucks/comment-page-1/#comment-136</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 20:40:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewchenblog.com/2008/05/29/user-retention-why-depending-on-notification-driven-retention-sucks/#comment-136</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Andrew I love reading your stuff, it&#039;s always insightful and always backed by good math (despite a multiplication error now and then, then logic is always right on target haha). &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I run a group dating site and this is the kind of thing we talk about often. At the end of this most recent post you start to get into the concept of deep vs. shallow apps on Facebook, and I really think that as the viral channels close up (and they&#039;ve been closing very quickly as notifications are getting spammier and Facebook is cracking down on them), then I think that ultimately the only apps left standing will be ones that offer a significant value to the user, or as you say, deep apps. I wrote something about this back in March on our blog:&lt;br /&gt;
&lt;a href=&quot;http://ignighter.com/blog/2008/03/31/its-not-i-have-a-dream-but-its-something/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://ignighter.com/blog/2008/03/31/its-not-i-have-a-dream-but-its-something/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Keep up the great work Andrew!&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Andrew I love reading your stuff, it&#8217;s always insightful and always backed by good math (despite a multiplication error now and then, then logic is always right on target haha). </p>
<p>I run a group dating site and this is the kind of thing we talk about often. At the end of this most recent post you start to get into the concept of deep vs. shallow apps on Facebook, and I really think that as the viral channels close up (and they&#8217;ve been closing very quickly as notifications are getting spammier and Facebook is cracking down on them), then I think that ultimately the only apps left standing will be ones that offer a significant value to the user, or as you say, deep apps. I wrote something about this back in March on our blog:<br />
<a href="http://ignighter.com/blog/2008/03/31/its-not-i-have-a-dream-but-its-something/" rel="nofollow">http://ignighter.com/blog/2008/03/31/its-not-i-have-a-dream-but-its-something/</a></p>
<p>Keep up the great work Andrew!</p>
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		<title>By: Aronado</title>
		<link>http://andrewchenblog.com/2008/05/29/user-retention-why-depending-on-notification-driven-retention-sucks/comment-page-1/#comment-135</link>
		<dc:creator>Aronado</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 17:04:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewchenblog.com/2008/05/29/user-retention-why-depending-on-notification-driven-retention-sucks/#comment-135</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;hola! Andrew&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;excellent post my friend!!! I was happy to see that we built our site very much inline with most of your suggestions regarding notifications.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;We are currently building our widget for OS &amp; FB so, it was great to hear some thoughts on that as well.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Thank you!&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hola! Andrew</p>
<p>excellent post my friend!!! I was happy to see that we built our site very much inline with most of your suggestions regarding notifications.</p>
<p>We are currently building our widget for OS &#038; FB so, it was great to hear some thoughts on that as well.</p>
<p>Thank you!</p>
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		<title>By: lawrence</title>
		<link>http://andrewchenblog.com/2008/05/29/user-retention-why-depending-on-notification-driven-retention-sucks/comment-page-1/#comment-134</link>
		<dc:creator>lawrence</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 31 May 2008 02:33:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewchenblog.com/2008/05/29/user-retention-why-depending-on-notification-driven-retention-sucks/#comment-134</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Hey Andrew, I hear you on most of your points.  Of course it&#039;s preferable to have folks love your site and come back on their own, but in the absence of that, push notifications are better than nothing.  So yeah, notification driven retention sucks, but it sucks less than passively sitting back as your new users bounce off your site.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I couldn&#039;t agree with you more on the home surface.  I see much better retention on MySpace apps than on Facebook, because of the home surface that MySpace gives you.  As an app publisher, you can push fresh content through there to keep folks engaged.  &lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Andrew, I hear you on most of your points.  Of course it&#8217;s preferable to have folks love your site and come back on their own, but in the absence of that, push notifications are better than nothing.  So yeah, notification driven retention sucks, but it sucks less than passively sitting back as your new users bounce off your site.</p>
<p>I couldn&#8217;t agree with you more on the home surface.  I see much better retention on MySpace apps than on Facebook, because of the home surface that MySpace gives you.  As an app publisher, you can push fresh content through there to keep folks engaged.  </p>
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		<title>By: Colin</title>
		<link>http://andrewchenblog.com/2008/05/29/user-retention-why-depending-on-notification-driven-retention-sucks/comment-page-1/#comment-133</link>
		<dc:creator>Colin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 12:01:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewchenblog.com/2008/05/29/user-retention-why-depending-on-notification-driven-retention-sucks/#comment-133</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Out of interest...what is your opinion on update emails such as Plaxo and Linkedin send out? These don&#039;t appear on the hierarchy you propose above and would seem to cut across it i.e. unsolicited/untriggered updates about people you know.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;On a separate note, I can&#039;t stress enough the &quot;Build features that support high-quality single-user experiences&quot; as a means of bridging from low to high community usage and engagement. &lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Out of interest&#8230;what is your opinion on update emails such as Plaxo and Linkedin send out? These don&#8217;t appear on the hierarchy you propose above and would seem to cut across it i.e. unsolicited/untriggered updates about people you know.</p>
<p>On a separate note, I can&#8217;t stress enough the &#8220;Build features that support high-quality single-user experiences&#8221; as a means of bridging from low to high community usage and engagement. </p>
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		<title>By: eschnou</title>
		<link>http://andrewchenblog.com/2008/05/29/user-retention-why-depending-on-notification-driven-retention-sucks/comment-page-1/#comment-132</link>
		<dc:creator>eschnou</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 05:12:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewchenblog.com/2008/05/29/user-retention-why-depending-on-notification-driven-retention-sucks/#comment-132</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks Andrew ! &lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;This post was an eye-opener for me. In fact many of your posts are :-) Any plans to turn all these posts &amp; conversations into a good book on marketing 2.0 ?&lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Andrew ! </p>
<p>This post was an eye-opener for me. In fact many of your posts are <img src='http://andrewchenblog.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':-)' class='wp-smiley' />  Any plans to turn all these posts &#038; conversations into a good book on marketing 2.0 ?</p>
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		<title>By: Ross Hill</title>
		<link>http://andrewchenblog.com/2008/05/29/user-retention-why-depending-on-notification-driven-retention-sucks/comment-page-1/#comment-131</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross Hill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 May 2008 03:08:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewchenblog.com/2008/05/29/user-retention-why-depending-on-notification-driven-retention-sucks/#comment-131</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Thanks Andrew, this post is awesome. &lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks Andrew, this post is awesome. </p>
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		<title>By: chica</title>
		<link>http://andrewchenblog.com/2008/05/29/user-retention-why-depending-on-notification-driven-retention-sucks/comment-page-1/#comment-130</link>
		<dc:creator>chica</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 May 2008 17:40:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://andrewchenblog.com/2008/05/29/user-retention-why-depending-on-notification-driven-retention-sucks/#comment-130</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I read your blog often and its highly informative about current trends. One thing I&#039;ve noticed, and I may not be completely correct on this, is that you focus on Facebook apps when talking about viral/social marketing. Would you add some thoughts on Orkut too? Orkut apps are new and I am very curious to how you would compare your findings on Facebook with Orkut. &lt;/p&gt;
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		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read your blog often and its highly informative about current trends. One thing I&#8217;ve noticed, and I may not be completely correct on this, is that you focus on Facebook apps when talking about viral/social marketing. Would you add some thoughts on Orkut too? Orkut apps are new and I am very curious to how you would compare your findings on Facebook with Orkut. </p>
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